Episode 38 – Engaging Video for your Photography Website w/ Daniel Usenko

Scott: Welcome to episode 38, my name is Scott Wyden Kivowitz and I'm joined by my guest, Daniel Usenko. Daniel grew up in the former Soviet Union in a tiny republic called, Abkhazia. Pretty good? Okay, okay. So when he was seven, a civil war broke out. And after a year of brutal warfare, Daniel's family escaped to Russia, and eventually to the United States as refugees. When he was 16 he started a wedding videography business, at 21 he decided to switch to photography.

All in all, he documented weddings for over 15 years. And a few years ago, Daniel co-founded a software company start up that first, changed the photography world with smart items, and is not about to do the same thing with a really cool new app, service, feature called SmartSlides, a simple slideshow software. Man that's a tongue-twister.

So I'm really excited to have you here, we've known each other online really for a couple years now I guess, a few years now? I don't know. And been a fan of what you guys are doing, you gave me access to SmartSlides in the beta and then I still have access and been playing with it, and it's so much fun, so easy to use. So I'm really excited to share what you guys have going on with the listeners and viewers of the podcast, because as everybody is listening and watching this we'll find out video is very important for your photography website and it can really enhance the experience that you're giving your clients.

So before dive into what's going on with you, though, let's talk about some Word Press photography related news. The first one that I have is Press Shack, a new company, has forked a plugin that is made by Automatic, the people behind Jet Pack, called Edit Flow. Now this is basically a great plugin, Edit flow is a great plugin for any blog or any website that has multiple authors. So if you have a wedding photography business and you have multiple photographers that do the shooting in your business and you want them to also blog, yes you can give them access. But Edit Flow gives you a lot of multi author tools, like a multi author editorial calendar and different stages that you can give content and tasks lists that you can create for content, things like that.

So Edit Flow hasn't been updated in awhile, it's kind of ugly. It does a good job but it's just very basic. So Press Shack forked it, basically made a legal copy of the plugin, and it's now created. This copy is called Publish Press, and it's basically aiming to be the best multi user editorial workflow for Word Press. So check that out, it's free in the repo in the Word Press directory, and there's gonna be paid addons in the future.

The next but of news is adding images to the Word Press sidebar and video to the sidebar and I think even PDFs. Any media from the media library is about to get a lot easier. There's a new widget that is currently in beta, and anybody is welcome to download this plugin and install it on their Word Press site to try it. It's called a feature plugin because basically it's a feature that's in a plugin form that they're testing out and fine tuning so they can eventually put it into the core of Word Press, so this plugin will eventually be in Word Press which means everybody will have access to it eventually.

But basically if you want, you can just go to the show notes, click on the link with this piece of news and you'll be able to download this plugin into your site and be able to add images to your sidebar, videos to your sidebar, any media easily without having to copy, paste, and HTML. So that's a really nice thing, this is finally Word Press is having something that should have been there since day one.

And the last bit of news, my favorite Word Press security company, which is called Sucuri, was just acquired, and to my great shock, they were acquired by GoDaddy. Now I don't know what that's gonna mean for Sucuri. They offer the best security scanning and hack clean up out there, I think it's between 99 and $200, depending on the site and the hack. But now that GoDaddy owns it, I don't know what's gonna happen to them. So I just thought that was really interesting, and we will see now this smaller, but still one of the biggest security companies in the Word Press space is now a company of one of the largest, or the largest hosting company in the world. Yeah, it's probably good news. It's definitely good news for them, we'll see what it means for customers.

So Daniel, what is going on with you guys at Pixellu and with SmartSlides, with SmartAlbums and what do you guys have going on?

Daniel: Well first, thanks for having me on the show I really appreciate it. What's going on? Well funny thing is, yesterday we just released an update that makes SmartSlides embed responsive, which is ... For about a month when we launched we had some responsive issues, but finally if anybody embeds a slideshow onto a Word Press blog or website, it's gonna scale down when you are on your phone. Other than that, that's ...

Scott: It's funny, you guys recently released SmartSlides, you now have responsive embed. YouTube, which has been around for who knows how long, still does not have responsive embed. So good job getting way ahead of the curve, that is really good for you guys to do.

Daniel: I actually didn't know that they didn't have responsive embed, that's crazy.

Scott: Yep.

Daniel: I guess we're way ahead of the curve, they should acquire us for billions of dollars.

Scott: Yeah, that's for sure.

Daniel: But like I said, we recently launched SmartSlides, it's been really exciting. We've been working on the project for over two years before we released it, which is crazy. It required a lot of patient, but we released it just over a month ago. Just improving it now, so exciting times for sure.

Scott: Yeah. So before we get any further, I just want to mention, because I don't know if that was ... I don't recall if you said it ... Responsive, just for anybody who's listening who doesn't understand what responsive is, it means that it will scale down and just sort of shrink nicely in proportion on mobile devices. So if somebody's ... If you have your site designed a certain way with the video nice and large, on mobile, obviously, you want everything to go down so it'll just shrink nicely. And what I was saying, a YouTube video won't shrink nicely, but a SmartSlides video will.

Daniel: Yeah, responsive basically means that they don't work as well on your phone as it does on the computer, is basically what it comes down to.

Scott: So you guys are working on some new features, right? So what other features are you gonna be releasing soon? Or have in the pipeline?

Daniel: Oh yeah, we have lots in the pipeline. You can dream up a lot of things, but we're going with what our customers want the most right now. And what our customers want the most is an ability to download a video version of the slide show. For those of you, for those listening that are not familiar, what the product is, it's a SlideShow software that's on the web and the final result is a link that you can send to your clients, and you can also, as I mentioned, embed that slideshow onto your website. But the slideshow itself is basically a web HTML5 slideshow, but some photographers would want to download a video version of the slideshow so that they can either sell it, or whatever they want to do with it.

Right now we're finalizing the video download feature, so that is gonna be ready in the end April which is gonna be about a week or two away from this podcast right now.

Scott: Awesome. So to give everybody an example of how useful this may be, I just recently added a new cake smash photography page to my website. I'm gonna be pushing that service more for my own photography work. And I made a SmartSlide of three different cake smash sessions I did sort of mashed into one, I think it was like a three or four minute slideshow. And it was done so easily because the software is that easy, and then I have access to this download feature, which is in beta right now, and I downloaded the video file, uploaded it to my YouTube channel, and now I have another video on my YouTube channel and I embedded that ... I could have just used the responsive embed feature that was just released on SmartSlides, but I have it on my YouTube channel because I'm trying to push my YouTube channel more, so it's sort of like a sneaky way for me to potentially get more views and more subscribes.

So now when I'm linking to a sample slide show that's included in one of the packages, or in each of the packages, that I'm doing it to a video that SmartSlides created, but I downloaded the file and brought it to my YouTube.

Daniel: Yeah that's cool, that's really cool. The embed feature is great, but there's obviously benefits from posting on YouTube or Vimeo or somewhere like that. And it is more work because you have to download and have to upload it some other channel, then you have to like ... So the embed feature saves you time in the fact that you can just copy the embed code right away and embed it. But everybody has different workflow.

Scott: Yeah, yeah. And not every photographer cares about building up a YouTube following.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah yeah.

Scott: So if you don't care about that, then use the tool that you're given. I mean, I was originally just linking to the SmartSlide page, what was created for me. Just a matter of what works best for you.

Daniel: Yeah, everybody has a different workflow, that's what I learned with SmartAlbums and SmartSlides, is every photographer is different. It's a bad idea for software companies to force you to use their way, so options are good.

Scott: Yeah they are, yeah. So what else do you have going on?

Daniel: Oh man, well we have so many user requests, feature requests. Even though we spent two years polishing it up, we spent actually more time making SmartSlides than we did SmartAlbums. But once you release it there are things that you may not have known that people want, and so you have to prioritize the features. One of the ones that we're really, really, excited about is beat matching.

A lot of photographers spend a couple hours in Premier, Adobe Premier to make something really fancy when the slides match the beat. So we're trying to make that a really, really simple process. Something that you can do in three, four minutes instead of hours. And we have a guy with us working right now that he spent, I believe something like over 20 years in the music industry to work with us to make this process of beat matching really fast and really easy, and for it to look good. So that's probably the most exciting thing right now, because I know I have been to a few conferences, and sometimes the speakers, they put up a slideshow of their work and it's like super fancy with matching to beat like, perfectly.

And everybody's like, whoa, how did you do that? And the answer's always like, "Yeah I did it in Premier, and it took me hours." But we're gonna be able to do it in minutes, so yeah that's probably the biggest thing right now.

Scott: That sounds great, yeah I look forward to seeing that feature, that's for sure. So you mentioned, before you started recording, that you're doing a workshop. So do you want to tell me about that?

Daniel: Yeah, I am doing a workshop, it's free. I'm doing it with a friend of mine, Deena, she's been a friend of mine for awhile and we've shot together many, many times. And one day we're texting each other and we were like, we should do a workshop. I'm like, yeah I'll do a workshop. But we, as a company, sponsor so many workshops in the world that I kind of know what works, what doesn't work. And so we decided to do a free one so that it ... I don't know, just to give back.

I really love teaching, I've taught workshops in Mexico, in the US and Canada and a bunch of places, and I just really love teaching and it's a way for us to give back. So we got too many applicants now so we have to narrow it down to whom to accept.

Scott: Nice, yeah that sounds great. So let's talk about video and photography websites. Now I'm a big advocate for including video content on your website. The most obvious of late, is using 'about me' videos. The concept of, instead of just having text on your about page, you're including an actual short film about you, the photographer, hopefully filmed by a professional videographer, not just anything, that really, not just sells you as a photographer but really let's people connect with who you are as a human being, right?

So that's just one example of video content. How would people use something like a slide show on their site in various places? What would you recommend? Where would you tell photographers to consider using such content?

Daniel: Good question, and I can talk about for a really long time. So going back real fast, the workshop that we're doing, right? In two days we got over 50 applicants, and for us it was very difficult to choose who want to be part of the workshop because we want people who really wanted ... We want to make sure their personalities match with ours. And so what did we do? We asked them, we emailed all of them and said you gotta send us a video of yourself, even if it's on your iPhone, telling us about yourself. Because there's so little that you can get out of text. Even when we ask questions, show us your portfolio, why do you want to take the workshop, all those things. It was really hard to tell apart the candidates who deserve it from those that are just looking to waste their time and hours a little bit.

So we asked them to send us a video, and the video was so revealing as to how much passion they have, what they care about, all those things. In a similar way, when somebody comes to your website they just read something that looks exactly like the other 50 photographers that they visited, their websites. There's just very limited amount of information that you can get out of text. So having a video is almost like meeting the person a little bit. You know what their personality is, what they care about, what their passion is, and right away it makes you stand out, it makes you really ... For the client basically to meet you before they can actually meet you.

So I think the video's definitely really, really important. And even for Pixellu right now we are investing heavily into video. We have a person that's dedicated, their full time job is to make videos. But as far as smart slides, to how to use that in the business, I think the reason that slideshows are really effective and important in the first place is because you're using the element of music, and music is very emotional and it communicates on another level. It's much different than having a gallery and just clicking next, next, next, next.

Slideshows have the emotional music aspect, but also they allow the photographer to control what images are seen, when, and with what emotions they're being watched. So if you add a sad song with emotional images, you're getting, basically, a four ex return on the emotional feedback there. And then if you're having like a party scene with party music, you're getting them excited and you're putting them into a fun mood.

So I would say that for just videos and slideshows, the reason that they're more effective is because you're not just using the visual aspect, you're also using the hearing, and you're able to combine those two to create something more impactful than if you're just looking at the images themselves.

Scott: Right, that is for sure. One of the places that I often recommend people to make slideshows and include it in with content is in blog post. So yes, you can deliver a video slideshow to a client, which I think is a good idea, to actually give them access to the video. Whether you are keeping on SmartSlides and just giving them link to view, or if you're downloaded and archiving it elsewhere for them to get. But I think embedding it in a blog post when you're actually blogging about that session, or that event, I think that is extremely beneficial because you're giving them some stills that they can look at and just click and view without it changing, right? And then you're also giving them this, sort of, more engaging content that has this more emotions because the music, with clean transitions and whatnot, and you're given the ability to view it that way. That's one area that I recommend for photographers to do.

Another is in proofing galleries. Because a good example of this is, my sister-in-law just had a baby and they had the hospital photographer photograph their photos while still in the hospital, like on day one. And when they looked at the photos, which weren't in proofing, just thumbnail form, they actually didn't even look at those. They looked at the mobile video slideshow that they were given every single time, because the music that came with it. And that's what made them cry, not the stills. It was the video that made them cry and then want to buy everything.

Daniel: Right, no absolutely. I actually had a photographer, you know, and say that she made a blog post of her favorite 2016 images, you know how to do like, best of the year? And she made a blog post with just those images, and then a month later she made a slideshow with the same images. And she said that she got much, much better response with the slideshow then she did with just the images. Again, because ... We're emotional people and we like stories and music means a lot to us, it brings a lot of emotion to it.

For whatever reason, I mean we don't have to dig into psychology, the fact is that the response is just much stronger when you involve another sense, hearing, into it.

Scott: Yeah. One thing that I do with my proofing galleries, and I'm gonna be doing this with SmartSlides now more often, is I have a hidden area on my site where I can add my proofing galleries and password protect and send that link off to clients, and that's still what I'm doing. I'm actually using NextGen Gallery and NextGen Pro in order to do that, and the client can go on there and proof, and then they can actually purchase at the same time, or either/or, whatever I enable.

But what I'm gonna be doing from now on is adding a ... Basically taking all the pics that I picked from that session that I put in the proofing gallery, I'm also gonna be putting into a SmartSlides slideshow and basically embedding that right above the actual proofing gallery, so that way the clients basically have two forms of looking at the photo, still and video and one of which they can actually proof with, but one they can put full screen and take advantage of on their phone or on the computer.

Daniel: I got another idea, it's ever better.

Scott: What's that?

Daniel: While we share, I forgot to mention that one of the things that we're working on, we're gonna be adding, in a few months, we're gonna be adding a ability to add a custom link to the slideshow. So what you could do is, you could have a custom link that links to your proofing gallery, and you can name it something like buy prints' or 'all images' or whatever it is, so that way you can just send the slideshow to them and to the right of that slideshow there will be a button that says, whatever it is that you want to say, whether it be 'buy prints' or 'all images'.

And that way if you want to make sure that, for the first time, that they see their images they're watching in a slideshow. But then the slideshow doesn't leave them going nowhere, it actually has a link out. Then you can also add the proofing gallery in there, and that way you're kind of controlling what they're seeing first and what they're seeing next too. I think that will be really powerful too.

Scott: That's awesome, that's very appealing. So that should be a, that'll be a nice feature once that's out too. Is there an ETA on that one? Or is that just down the road?

Daniel: Right now we already have it conceptualized, we already have all the buttons drawn and all the buttons chosen and all the UX done for it. Now it's a matter of implementing it, and I would say the ETA is sometime mid, to early summer.

Scott: Cool.

Daniel: So probably, two, three months from now. And then you could have a slideshow, like you explained, as part of the proofing gallery so the two are linking back and forth. So it doesn't matter where the viewer lands, they can see the other product as well.

Scott: Yep. And that actually will save a little bit of space so they can get right to their thumbnails to proof or they can click right to the slideshow. That's awesome.

Daniel: Because you're not sure what they'll be sharing. They might share the proofing gallery or they might share the slideshow. So regardless of where their family or their friends land, they can find the other piece as well.

Scott: Yeah, I like it. So what else do, you ... What other type of video content do your recommend for photographers to consider or that you think is beneficial for photographer websites in general.

Daniel: Good question, one of the things that some photographers I've seen do, which is pretty cool, is they take all the images they took at the wedding, and by all I mean like, literally all, like five or 6000 that they have.

Scott: Wow.

Daniel: And they take all of them and put them into ... Well maybe not 5000, but let's just say 1000 images, and put them into a slideshow that say like, five minutes long. And that way the whole thing is crazy fast and you're seeing each image just for a fraction of a second, but it's telling the whole story in a way that's like, super unique. And it takes as fast as it takes to upload those 1000 images, probably just put an upload, add a song, go get some coffee or tea or whatever, come back, and then it's a new, interesting stop motion type story telling that is quite unique, and not a lot of photographers are doing it.

But now that it's really easy to do, I think it's just a very cool, impressive thing. And maybe that's not the first thing you're showing to the clients, you'll probably want to just show a standard slideshow at the beginning. I think that's just, yeah, just a really cool thing. And now that you can download the slideshow too, you can actually sell that, so make some extra money from it too for photography. Like even if it's like a hundred bucks, it took you five minutes. In five minutes making $100 is a good ROI on your time.

Scott: Exactly, yeah, yeah. And that's one of the big advantages of being able to download videos, being able to actually deliver that file to your clients and charge them for it. For the cake smash session that I'm doing I actually put it in the packages, just so it's ... Sort of a pain. But if I was doing a wedding, that's a major up sell right there, to be able to give them ... And these videos are also 4k aren't they?

Daniel: The videos are in 4k, yeah. We're thinking about the 4k videos, but the actual slideshow that's on the web is 4k.

Scott: Okay.

Daniel: So when you embed, if you embed the slideshow onto your blog and they click to go into full screen, they'll see seeing it in 4k if their monitor is 4k.

Scott: Awesome. Yeah, so if you did eventually add 4k to the download, that means that you're giving the absolute highest possible quality that's available to people right now, to consumers right now with a ... Let's say you did a wedding that was 5000, you up sold $100 bucks for this extra slideshow that took you five minutes, that's ...

Daniel: Yeah.

Scott: It's like, drop the mic.

Daniel: Exactly. What we recommend doing is we recommend making the slideshow itself for free so that they fall in love with it. And then if they want to download the feature, then you sell it to them, because people don't want to spend more money. Everybody wants to save, but once you show it to them it's hard to say, "Oh yeah, I don't want it for $100, or $200," or whatever it is you put a price on.

Scott: Will there be a feature down the road where people can buy the slideshow right from the slideshow that they're viewing? That they can buy the download?

Daniel: That's something that we're thinking about, but what you can do now is, you could actually enable the download for the bride to be able t download the slideshow from the link you send her to. But add a PIN, like a PIN password to the download. If she sees that you can download it, but she sees there's a PIN, she can contact you and try to get the PIN. You can say, well actually the download is $200 or whatnot. Once she sends you the $200, you can send her the PIN to make that download, so you don't even have to do the work of sending her the thing, she can just ...

Scott: Nice, direct from there.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott: That is awesome.

Daniel: Yep.

Scott: That is really cool. Anything else that ... So the whole stop motion, time lapse super speed, hyper lapse, whatever you want to call it, type video. That was a great tip, I think that a lot of photographers should take advantage of that. Any other ideas that come to mind? Of video styles?

Daniel: Yeah, I mentioned briefly when I went to conferences, one of the most impressive things that people, the speakers show, is a really cool beat matched slideshow of their work, right? Random images from random weddings and it makes the photographer look better than even they are because it's such an impressive thing. So soon, we're gonna have the beat matching capability, I think it's gonna be really cool for photographers to have that either on the home page of their website or maybe something that they sent to clients who are inquiring a slideshow of their work, the best of their images in a really cool beat matched slideshow. Simply because, again, it's just got whatever season with the music, it looks very impressive. You can have the worst images in that slideshow, but because it's produced so well, it just makes you look so good.

Scott: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:29:20]

Daniel: You could do that now, even without the beat matching, you can just, like I mentioned a few minutes ago, a photographer made a slide show of her best photos from 2016, and that got a lot better response than when she just blogged about those photos. I think to summarize, it's taking your best work, putting it into your slideshow, and having it as a way to introduce new clients to your work, it can be really powerful.

Scott: Yeah, if you're doing, let's say you're a wedding photographer and you're doing four weddings a month, right? Which is, that's a pretty decent amount. And let's say, on the first of, or first week of every month, you do a video that's sort of like that, where it's a beat match, and you're doing it from every photo from, what's today? Today's April, right? So every photo from March, your favorite from every wedding you did in March, 2017, you know? And you're doing it so it's the previous month, every month.

You could do it as a blog post, again, sort of what I was saying with the stills plus the video, so people can look at both. Because everybody likes something different, not everybody loves video, but not everybody loves looking at stills. Some people don't care about music, some people love music. So if you give everybody ... And then you also want the text part of the blog post as well. But if you give people the best of every possible engaging content it's a win-win.

It's the same reason why this podcast, we're doing it as video, we're doing it as audio, and we're also having every episode transcribed, so there's text. We want everybody to be able to consume the podcast in whatever way is best for them.

Daniel: Yeah, no I absolutely agree. Some people are just, they are in a public place and they're scrolling, and some people are in a private place and they want the music. It's kind of like when you call those corporations and you're on a bus and it says, "representative," as you're trying to yell into the phone, right?

Scott: Yeah, customer service representative. You never say anything monotone until you have to say that, over and over and over again.

Daniel: Right, so if somebody's work and they are looking at the images, they want to look at the images. The slideshow may not be the best way because there's audio there, and you're not gonna be able to hear the audio because you wouldn't want others to hear it, so you might just want to scroll through it and a blog post is definitely better for that. But if you're doing a premier where they're seeing them just for a first time at home, then a slideshow is better because of the music. So I completely agree with you that you have to provide options for people, and for them to consume it the way they want to consume it.

Scott: Yeah, awesome. So let's dive into what plugin you recommend for people to check out. Now the one that I know that you're gonna be mentioning is not one that the average photographer will use, but I think it's important to know that this exists, and the benefits of it. Because ... Well, let's talk about it. What's the plugin you recommend?

Daniel: Well the plugin is called EasyDigitalDownloads, EDD for short. And we use it to run our eCommerce side of the Pixellu business. So whenever someone tries to buy SmartAlbums or SmartSlides, that plugin is the one that processes the other and keeps the list of users, customers, gives you reports on sales, et cetera. And sure, it may not be a common plugin that a photographer would use, but if they ever thought of selling anything, whether that be a workshop or a PDF, or who knows what it is, it's a great plugin that works right into Word Press and allows you do all those things.

Scott: Yeah, so a good example is anybody who's watching, listening, who is thinking about or already does sell eBooks or light room preset, Photoshop actions, things like that. When I first started selling my light room presets and my PDF eBooks I was using EasyDigitalDownloads, and I love it. Pippin, who is the lead developer for EasyDigitalDownloads, super nice guy, extremely knowledgeable, one of the best Word Press developers in the world. And I have no problem using Easy Digital Downloads because of the degree that I knew it was well coded and going to just function the way it says it's gonna function.

And I love it, still do love it, and I have switched to WooCommerce, and I only switched for one reason: because I needed to sell courses, because I'm now doing online courses, and there's only one plugin that works seamlessly, one learning management system, which is for courses, that works seamlessly with the popular eCommerce plugins. And that's called Sensei and that's also made by WooCommerce. So if there was a LMS, a learning manage system plugin that was seamless with easy digital download, and there are many that work with EDD, but not all are seamless, I'd still be using EDD over WooCommerce.

So anybody who is considering only selling things that are downloadable like PDFs or eBooks, then I do recommend checking out EDD because it is awesome.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah, I actually form my person website, because I still have also a personal website, I have produced five years ago a DVD, educational DVD that was actually sold in many, many countries. But the way that we delivered the digital download of the DVD is, we were able to hook it up to Amazon S3 and whenever someone made a purchase they automatically got a link that expired within a certain amount and all that, so it was quite sophisticated for what I thought a Word Press plugin could do.

Scott: Yeah, I definitely think easy digital downloads paved the way for a lot of unique things that WordPress is doing these day for plugins are doing. I know that we were inspired by a lot of what EDD is doing when we built our eCommerce system as well. It's a great plugin, and they actually just raised their prices too, I don't know if you knew that.

Daniel: Oh really? No, how much is it now?

Scott: To get their extension ... EDD itself it free, but to get all the extensions it went up a lot. So their core starter, which has like 20 extensions is not $800.

Daniel: Wow.

Scott: It went up a lot.

Daniel: I mean, they are selling it to people who are selling something, so they know they have the money.

Scott: Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So before we close up, I'm curious if you guys have any other new projects, outsides of SmartSlides and SmartAlbums, anything new up your sleeve that you want to share? That's coming down the pipeline at some point, even if you don't have a date? Or even details yet, just like a hint of ...

Daniel: No, no new projects. At the moment our big project all the time is to improve what we have. For instance, in a month or so we're gonna be releasing a Spanish and Portuguese version of SmartAlbums because we have such a big international audience that's using it. So right now we're focusing on improving what we have, we don't want to spread ourselves too thin.

Scott: Nice, I like it. Sometimes you do need to step back from new projects and just improve, you know? That's business, that's software as a service. Even us as photographers, we need to do that and stop branching out and just make our own product and services better.

Daniel: Absolutely.

Scott: Yeah, I love it. Cool, well thank you Daniel for joining the show today. You can find the show notes from today's episode, and where to find Daniel at imagely.com/podcast/38.

Daniel: Awesome, thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it.

Scott: Yeah, yeah. Glad that you're able to join and I think I invited you when we first started a discussion was right when you announced to us SmartSlides. So yeah, and we'll definitely have you on again as things progress, and maybe new features that we can talk about and share that are beneficial for listeners as well. We'll have you back at some point.

Daniel: Awesome. Awesome, thank you.