Episode 114 – Pivot and Shift with Skip Cohen

Transcription was done by Rev.com, using their AI (artificial intellegence) generated transcript. The transcript may contain spelling, grammar, and other errors, and is not a substitute for watching the video or listening to the episode.

Scott:
Welcome to episode one 14. My name is Scott Wyden Kivowitz and I'm joined by my guest, the kind of the wise skip Cohen.

Skip:
Wow. The kind and the why.

Scott:
Yeah. All right. Yeah, you are, you are kind and wise.

Skip:
I don't know if it's, if the word is really wise and wisdom or it's just experience, there's an awful lot of things you learn when you hang around and you just, you look at all the mistakes you've made and all the things you wish you had done differently and you be, you do become wiser

Scott:
For sure. Yeah. And re re regarding your, your history and your experience. You've been in the photo photography industry, your entire adult life. And I think that in many ways that you are the heart and soul of the photo industry. Well in many ways,

Skip:
Well, I, I appreciate that, but there's that old line about if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. I really consider myself one of the luckiest knuckleheads in this industry. And I look back over some of the things that I just sort of stumbled into another, the other things that I might've worked towards. And I just, I, I love this industry in February. It'll be, Oh my God, it'll be 51 years. Well, since I was washing bottles in a lab at Polaroid in 1970, so yeah,

Scott:
So for those who don't, who don't know skip he is the founder of skip Coon university. He is the COO of plotty pod. He is the past president of both rangefinder publishing end WPPI as you heard, he worked for Polaroid and he was also the president of hustle blog for awhile. And

Skip:
[Inaudible] USA

Scott:
Buddy USA, and has coauthored six books on photography and actively support dozens of projects each year involving photographic education. And in addition to his daily blog post at SU he's, the coast or three podcasts, mind your own business beyond technique and Tamron recipes, he's also a speaker in a variety of conferences and conventions around the country and online, speaking of pivot and shift most recently, kicking, kicking off click con nation online. So this is I think the third episode of the pivot and shift mini series skip, I am excited to have you as a guest for this, because I think you're going to have some really good insights into what's going on in the photo industry right now, because of the pandemic and ways that we're seeing photographers, pivot and shift to keep making money.

Skip:
Well, thank you. I'm honored. I'm flattered. The truth is I, I kinda see myself like the old town crier in the 17 early 18 hundreds, where somebody walked through the town and literally shouted out the news. I talked to, I either talk to, or observe or interact with hundreds of hundreds of photographers every day in social media. A lot of phone calls and a lot of times ideas that I'm sharing. And I always try and give credit to whoever came up with them. It's a matter of us just getting closer as an industry and talking to each other more because the answers are all the answers are all out there. I used to write marketing programs for Polaroid and every now and then I'd hit a good one and somebody would say, my God, how'd you come up with that idea?

Skip:
And my answer was always the same while I asked the sales rep in that area. You know, if we raised your quota by a hundred percent, what would you need to make it? Or I walked into a retailer and said, we want, we want you to order twice as much Polaroid product as you did last year. What are you going to need? And the answers were all there. And they'd come up with answers like more ad dollars discounts, kits, accessories. So the answers are all out there. So that's one of the one, the one thing that I always recommend to everybody, even before the pandemic was get involved in your local community, find a group of photographers that are getting together once a month. Now you can do it and you can find groups online, but just talk to each other because whatever problem you're having right now, somebody else has already had it on the other side of the country, right?

Scott:
Yeah, it does. And there's tons of local groups of photographers meeting either in person, less these days in person, but online doing during zooms in Google meets and Facebook rooms and all these different things on a regular basis. So there's people out there to locally to that, that don't look at you like a competitor that at you like you know, someone that you could work together on, you know, for and help each other. So so we are impacted as, as in the photo industry, big time when it comes to this pandemic, we are losing clients, not permanently, but temporarily because of the whole distance thing. And so I'm wondering from your perspective and based on all the people that you interact with on a regular basis and the photographers you talk with, can you share some of the general shifts that you've seen in the photo?

Skip:
Well, yeah. I mean, some of them are obviously do the pandemic because of the pandemic. There's a definite shift to online. That's the obvious one and we're all more online, but online also means you've got an opportunity to interact with your clients. And that leads into the second shift I've seen where now more than ever relationship building is a key. It's always been a key, but now let's take a portrait of family portrait photographer. All it takes is a phone call to a client, a past client, not to sell anything just to say, Hey, I'm just checking in. I know you've got little kids at home. How you doing with the pandemic? Just to touch base. I'm I'm noticing that I answer my phone much quicker. I even enjoy taking these stupid telemarketing calls to harass them. Cause it gets the Russian on my system and I've got, I've got no more robo.

Skip:
I don't know how many people use it, but it blocks a lot of the telemarketing calls every now and then I see one and I just feel like it's like a workout. All right, let's get, let's get somebody. It's always somebody on the other side of the world, who's telling me that something's been built in my Amazon card or they want to extend credit. In any event we're answering our phone more, but use the phone more, make those outgoing calls, keep in touch with people. Facebook has become stronger than ever. And I hate it because Facebook does not do a good job when it comes to customer service and anybody that's ever had a problem with Facebook knows what it's like to get something resolved. But at the same time, Facebook has given us an ability to keep in touch. And one of the best places is to follow all your clients on birthdays and anniversaries.

Skip:
And just being able to say, Hey, you know, I noticed that your birthday today, happy birthday, hope your family's good. Hope you're staying safe, safe, and healthy. But again, that's one of the shifts is to more social media. The other one that's kind of interesting, and this is perfect for people in downtime right now. Video is stronger than ever. Now is the time to take that boring about page bio you've got on your website and do a short video. It's one to two minutes. You can do it hybrid and combined video with still images and some music and a soundtrack of you talking about why you love your business, why you love being a photographer, what your clients hope you'll do. So shift into doing more video. I've also seen a big shift and this comes out of the, my platter pot hat.

Skip:
More people doing at home projects because you don't have necessarily have any place to go. We've seen a huge increase in people doing macro and because it's safe, you can do it at home. You can take a flower from the garden or something that's in a potted plant or a piece of jewelry and play around with lighting it. Now a lot of people will say, well, that's just playtime, but think of how many wedding photographers and Scott, you know, plenty. And I know plenty. I can't tell you how many bad ring shots I've seen over the years or bad flower shots. Details are part of the wedding. So right now, while you're hunkered down, there's a shift in things you can be doing to build your skill set out. And then

Scott:
I actually think that I actually think that the whole macro thing might also see a surge in stock images being put out on these different stock sites to be sold. Cause that's a lot of stuff that you may not use for client work, but could be perfect for

Skip:
Doc. Well, and also Adobe stock. I mean, a while back, they were doing a huge push and I know it's still there. They're looking for, I believe it's eight to 15 second video clips. So being able to do a clip of, I don't know, it could be a butterfly, it could be a dog eating dog food. I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. It's those lifestyle short clips that they're looking for. It's the wind blowing through the trees. If you live near water, maybe it's a wave that's bouncing over and over again on the shore, but it's looking for those short video clips. So there's some, there's some interesting opportunities out there that come out of those shoes.

Scott:
Yeah. And for the photographers we went to, to circle back around to the about page that you were talking about doing the video for the photographers that are not great at video editing, but can have the camera to record the video themselves. And then obviously they'll have their stills from their client work. They can use a service like Animoto, who's been in the photo industry for many years to basically automate that 15 second video for them. You just take that, you know, you take your, the video clip and drop into Animoto you take the photos, drop into Animoto choose your template, choose the music done. It literally spits it out, edited for you already. So there's easy solutions for that as well. For, for those who aren't comfortable in premiere or final cut pro or anything like that.

Skip:
Well, you just hit on something that, that Joe McNally said early on in the when the pandemic was getting started, he was, he made a comment about expanding his skillset. And I almost fell off my chair because when you think about skillsets and Joe McNally, I mean, what is there left for the Joe needs to learn? And he made a comment that he was gonna use the downtime to finally learn final cut pro. And that's, there's another example. There's another shift. This is a good time for people just because you're hunkered down. Doesn't mean you have to hunker down on your business and doing things to build your skillset. And this is the perfect time right now to be able to take this downtime. Cause we never get it. We don't get downtime like this during, during whatever we consider normal. I've almost forgotten after eight months now of the pandemic. I've think I've forgotten what a normal day is like when you just have the freedom to get in your car and run to CVS or ACE and not think about anything.

Scott:
Yeah. I mean, in the wedding industry, they had their, their, their quote unquote downtime in a regular season, but they're still working there. They're there, they're planning their marketing. They're there, they're doing everything they need to, they're doing the engagement sessions. They're, they're doing everything they need to, for the, to build up their weddings, but they're still working typically you know where we're now a lot of wedding photographers do have that time where, Hey, you learn final cut pro, you get really good at it. You can then start offering video to your wedding still business. Right? So there's, there's definitely a lot of opportunity there.

Skip:
Well, I'm glad you brought up weddings because there's a photographer. You and I were talking about it just before we got started here. JP Allario is over near Albany and his business and his dad's business. Joe and JP are a father, son wedding photographers. They're phenomenal photographers. Although there's nothing, they can't shoot. But JP started doing FaceTime portraits and the six o'clock news, six o'clock news in Albany picked it up. In fact, I don't mean this to sound like an infomercial, but if you go to skip calling university.com and you just type in J P Allario ELA, R I O you'll go to a blog post I did where I have the clip from the Albany news station and he's doing FaceTime portraits. And you'll see, as you scroll down and you find the article, I think it's called FaceTime portraits or something like that, a new direction, but here's somebody whose wedding business dried up and he's doing headshots, FaceTime portraits come up and he's got an opportunity work with a client.

Skip:
It's created a new revenue stream for them at a time when the wedding business had dried up. Although if you think about it in that first quarter, like you said, it was downtime for most wedding photographers anyway, and he makes a comment in his interview on the news that, that the pandemic, it just feels like the slow season has been dramatically extended, which is what happened, but here's an idea to be able to keep doing what he loves doing as well as he's done a couple of engagement sessions all through FaceTime. And you'll see in the video that the news clip ran, you know, he's, he's giving his client a little direction and they're getting a product and something that they love. So

Scott:
Have you seen, have you seen before we move into the next question, have you seen Jared, what Jeremy coward has been doing?

Skip:
Okay. I'm a Jeremy fan. Okay.

Scott:
He, you know, his, he's got an incredibly creative mind. Right? Right. when I saw what he was doing, it blew me away. He is taking the, the FaceTime or the Skype, or however he's actually virtual, you know video chatting with his client, projecting them with a super high definition, professional Canon projector onto a white background or a background that he hand paints or digitally paints or whatever, and then lighting that. And it comes out as these completely unique, beautiful images that you can't get any other way. So he figured out how to take this distance session and make something super unique. And even photographs that inside of like a wood frame that he puts together. So you definitely gotta check that out. He puts him on his Instagram often, so they're really, really unique you know, for just a single single person or a family or things like that. So you don't photograph clients, you know for living, you are in the, sort of the, the business end of things. So I'm curious from your side, how has your business been impacted by this pandemic?

Skip:
Oh, excuse me. Well, first of all, I just to make sure everybody knows this, my passion is marketing and business. I can, I can do a portrait just as good as you can. Scott, the differences it'll take me 12 hours. It'll take you 12 minutes and that'll be, and mine will be hidden miss and like, all right, no, no, no. I, I need to move the lights over. I need to brighten that one. I know more than I let on because I've hung out with so many great photographers over the years and they're all my friends, but my passion is the business of marketing. Now in terms of changes in my business not, not that many. I mean, I'm doing more online than ever before. I miss conventions and speaking at conferences, something terrible. I, I, the last two shows where I USA and then WPPI, and both of them, I was working in the platter pod booth, and I had no idea that I would looking back, I would be looking back and saying, wow, those were the good old days a few months later.

Skip:
So when that first show does finally open up and we all go, it's going to be one hell of a celebration as everybody comes out of the woodwork, but my business has shifted more to online and the phone more than ever before. Obviously I'm not doing very much you know, live in person online workshops. I've done a couple now. And also there are changes, I think in terms of what I'm sharing, I'm sharing more things. Like I mentioned, the town crier I'm sharing, I'm trying to share more things that I hear that are going on that will help other photographers. One I mentioned was Steven goats up in Northern California who had an idea of taking family portrait images pulling me into Photoshop, Lightroom, whatever, pull the color, turn them line art and send it back to clients with small children as coloring book pages.

Skip:
It's brilliant. It's great Goodwill. It's the opportunity to stay in touch with a client. And it's such an easy, simple thing that everybody can do. And your clients are going to be sitting there saying, Oh my God, you know, a little little Tommy and Susie have nothing to do. And they're, one's five and one seven and they're home and we're doing homeschool, but now we can do some family portraits or places the family's gone on vacation. There's definitely been an increase in a greater sense of family than ever before because of the pandemic. It's almost like days when I was a kid where, you know, Sunday night, we all circled the wagons at my grandparents and watched the ed Sullivan show. And that's really dating. As everybody goes, who's, who's that Sullivan. Who is that Sullivan? You're one of those people.

Scott:
I know. I know, I know he, I mean, he is before my time, I will say, but I do know who he is. So if that helps

Skip:
My business, my business has changed more in terms of trying to help more photographers. Remember that I said it earlier hunkering down is about your health. It's not about your business or your skillset,

Scott:
Right. So you touched briefly on, on my, what my next question was, which is how the pandemic has impacted the photography industries, education side now, obviously conferences or going online workshops or going online. But have you noticed any other, anything else that has changed in the education side? Like have you, have you noticed a boost in photographers who are now getting into education or anything like that?

Skip:
I haven't picked up so much on that. Most of the people that at least I follow we're already doing something in education, but they might be doing something more and they're doing an online series for example. I know I was just on this morning with Bobby Lane and Lee verus I caught up to them on Facebook and I know Lee has got, in fact, both Lee and Bobby are doing some online programs Lee with doing some things in, in Photoshop, Lightroom and image manipulation, and Bobby doing things that relate to lighting. So most of the people I follow are just doing more of that, but then there are, then there are a few here and there that come up. In fact, one of the ones I, I shared ties back into one of the labs. And do you care if I mention a lab?

Skip:
Are you good? Go for it? Alright. Bay photo has a product called performance, ext metal. I've got three prints outside. One of them has been outside for three years in the, in the sun and heat and of Florida. Now, obviously we don't get the winter coals, but when you look at it by eye, there's been, there's been no deterioration in the image at all. Now under the microscope, who knows how much it's faded or change, but it's still a beautiful print. Well, how many restaurants now offer outdoor seating? And there's nothing outdoors. They stuck some tables on the side of the building. I mean, there's another revenues, revenue stream out there that could give photographers an opportunity to do something different in terms of helping a restaurant decorate outdoors with these performance ext metal prints. And it's another, it's another opportunity and that product. I mean, I liked it and talked about it two years ago, three years ago when I first put up the print, but now with the pandemic, there's an even greater need not to mention the fact how many people are at home and you're tired of looking at the same walls.

Skip:
There's an opportunity to redecorate and some good things there. So I don't know if I answered the question. I forgot the question already.

Scott:
It was good. That that was a good, that was a, that was a good a good, a good sort of tip for photographers to do as another way to branch out from what they're doing on a regular basis. In order to potentially bring in more revenue and, you know, new print opportunities. I, I never thought about the whole outdoor print. That's a great, a great idea. And it totally could be done, you know, like there's restaurants here that they literally pop up their outdoor tents on the, you know, on the side of their building in the parking lot. And you're, you're literally staring at a highway and a wall, a blank wall with nothing on it. I mean, to pop in some, some cement screws and hang a metal print, that's nothing. Right. so I like it. I like that idea, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think photographers can, could strategize.

Skip:
There's another aspect to education and I know photographers that are doing this. It doesn't quite fit under the umbrella of the question you asked, but in terms of education, every photographer right now has the ability to become an educator in their community. Take the time. There are things that all of you do that you don't think twice about. It's a combination. It maybe it's, backlighting, maybe it's composition, maybe it's posing start giving tips to your readers, use your blog and become the community expert on photography. And they don't have, we're not talking about long blog posts. You can show examples and it doesn't matter if you're shooting with a high end DSLR or you're shooting with a cell phone, give mom and dad tips on how to take better Halloween pictures this year, because the kids aren't going to be doing much trick or treating like they have in the past, but they want to get in their costume.

Skip:
They're going to be opportunities as we into the December holidays give them tips on how to get that great shot of the Christmas tree, how to do a family portrait at Thanksgiving share those things that you know, so on the education side, I think there's an opportunity for virtually every photographer with a blog to be able to build that content. And the other thing that everybody forgets about your blog doesn't have to be done in real time. Every time you post, I always recommend you to post at least twice a week. And if you're not going to do that, then put your blog aside until you have built up a stash. But in building up that stash, everybody listening to this podcast could take half a day and come up with 1520 topics that they can write about. You can use pictures as, as examples, you could do 15 to 20 tips on how to get better photographs.

Skip:
There's also an issue of what to do with your photographs. How many people have images on their computer in their phone that have never seen the light of day. And yet boy, a little tabletop easel with a print would be a fun thing to have. I mean, what are you going to give grandma this year besides a mask? And what are you going to do with your holiday cards? Holiday cards are the greatest way for photographers to get the message out there, but being able to offer clients holiday cards, as well as doing your own holiday cards is another great way to remind people what you do for a living.

Scott:
Yep. I think that the education stuff on, on your website is a great lead generation tool. Because if you're showing that, you know what you're doing, that you could teach, you could teach your clients. Since you can't necessarily always photograph your clients this season, you can educate your clients and how they can use their phones or whatever. It shows that you know, what you're doing, you're an authority. And it's gonna be a good lead lead generation tool that next year, hopefully knock on wood when everything's back to normal. You know, they'll come to you instead of doing it again themselves. Right. I also think on the same note, photographers that are interested in getting into education, you could set up a socially distanced masked photo session that isn't for portfolio use isn't for a paid job where it's you and your local photographers getting together to practice, to learn from each other. You set up lights outside and practice high speed sync and all these different things. And, you know, literally everyone is wearing a mask. No, one's getting close to each other, but y'all having a good time and learning from each other. I think there's another way to to take advantage of this forced downtime to, you know further education.

Skip:
Well, there's a misnomer out there in, in the word social distancing and Bob coats started it and said, can we at least call it physical distancing because the side has nothing to do with it. So you're right. You could do, you could do there are people out there that are doing smaller workshops. I don't know how many people got together for it, but I know that Scott Kelby had the photo walk 20, 20 last I guess it was last Saturday. And people were out photographing either on their own or going out with some friends and again, maintaining the physical distancing, but still being social, still exchanging ideas and still looking for new ways to be able to capture an image, which is another thing. I mean, the pandemic, I think, has made memories more important than ever. I've had a blast in a private group that I found online, which was called, if you grew up in Painesville, Ohio, you remember, well, Painesville, Ohio is my hometown and they just, they just share old images and it's been everything from, you know, I shared one of my wife's great grandparents from 1870 that we found being able to share those images, both older ones and just new things of things that are going on memories right now are there are premium.

Skip:
We're all trying to make them, and as photographers, everybody's got access to files of memories for their clients and things that you can share that create that reminder of how important imaging is it hasn't gone away. I mean, the revenue streams have changed and they won't come back to what they were for a little while. But that doesn't mean there aren't other things like JP Allario like the performance metal prints the coloring book pages, all those things are happening right now and they're out there. So you can develop that creativity and keep in touch and still build your business.

Scott:
So I have two more questions for you. The next I'm only taking one, but go ahead. Yeah. Well, so this next one you you've touched on, but I'm curious if you have any, any other juicy thing that you want to share. What would you tell all the photographers in these crazy situations, again, you've, you've shared already so many juicy details, but I'm wondering if there's something up your sleeve

Skip:
You might want to share. There, there is, and I don't mean it to sound sappy, but we are part of what I consider the most amazing industry in the world. In fact, and I've said this before second, only to modern medicine, photography imaging has given the world more than, than any other career field. And if you think about what the images that people have captured from the beautiful moments to the violation of human rights, where would we be without photography? Where would we be without video and imaging? And I think it's important for everybody to remember the role that we all still have and the responsibility we still have to our clients. It it's a really bad pun, but everybody's got to stay focused. Everybody knows how to focus with a hold focus with their camera, but you got to hold focus on your career.

Skip:
On those days when you're just frustrated as all hell and you're miserable and you don't know what to do, walk away from the computer, don't watch the news that day. Don't listen to any politician. Don't take any phone calls and just go out for a walk or take your camera out, go photograph the way you did. Maybe it was for me, it started in high school. You know, just go out for a walk with your camera, pick a topic. The, this is where I happen to love those 365 day projects where photographers will post a new image every day, doing something different now is the time to just stay focused. And when you get frustrated don't beat yourself up for it. Don't feel bad, we're all feeling it. And there are times when Sheila will say to me, what's wrong and I can't put my finger on it until we've talked a little bit more and I'm frustrated.

Skip:
I miss bumping into people. Literally I miss conventions. I miss being able to just, I I've referred to myself over the years is the biggest lunch slot in photography because I will regularly have lunch with photographers in the area. My buddy, Larry Becker is up on the other side of Tampa and I'm down here South of Tampa and we've got a place we meet for lunch and Sheila and I are still hunkered down and I'm not, I'm not going to risk, you know, seven and a half months of following some less serious level of health restrictions to grab lunch with Larry, but we talk on a regular basis. And it means a lot that I know he's out there, but there are days when we all feel the frustration. So what everybody's got to remember is that as photographers as imaging artists we're magicians, you guys are the magicians. I just try and help you market and the business of it all, but you're magicians. You're helping people capture memories. And that carries with it a huge responsibility that hasn't gone away just because of a pandemic. Right. That was the short again, by the way.

Scott:
Yeah, that was great. And it was it was definitely sappy and I like it

Skip:
To say I'm a savvy guy.

Scott:
Yeah. so again, you touched on something I was about to ask you. And I actually wonder if this is still what you do, but is there something that you do for your health mentally, physically, or a combination to cope with the stress that comes out of this pandemic for me is, is that I train harder in my karate classes because it's, it's like the perfect combination of the two. So I'm wondering what you do. And again, you said before, you know, go out for a walk with your camera and just get into that Zen place and you know, and mentally, right. And that's a good combination cause you're also walking around getting the physical exercise, but is that

Skip:
We've got, we've got some other things here. I stumbled on something totally by accident. I lost Molly, the wonder dog in February of 2019 and thought the hole in my heart would never be filled. Oh, there goes one of my note to self charge, your light TriPro before. One of my lights just went out, so we'll just live with it. But we wound up and we got two puppies in November and November, December, January, Sheila and I were both saying, what the hell were we thinking? I'm getting two puppies at the same time, but by February, March they kind of knew what they were doing. They were housebroken and the puppies have created an incredible outlet for us. Working together. We also have a butterfly garden and we're out there digging around in the garden. I've got a sign out back.

Skip:
It says Sheila's garden center. Some kids, some people, some kids never grow up and just like to play in the dirt. Well, Sheila got me into it. We both love to cook. We watch, we watch chopped. We watch a couple of other cooking shows, beat Bobby Flay. And as a result we've been, we've been cooking more. I have put on what I call the Corona 15 just yeah. Cause you're, you're cooking, you're, you're eating. Those are really the key. So I'd say cooking, walking's doing some kind of exercise. And the puppies have kept us busy. And then, like I said, there are days when I just shut the computer down and I might just go sit outside now. I can't deny for a second. I'm lucky I live in Florida. And until we get into those bone chilling 60 degree days we're outside all the time and I'm really serious people down here.

Skip:
It's so funny when the temperature drops everybody whines and complains and everybody up North is dealing with, you know, 10 and 20 degree children and I'm, and I'm whining. Cause I can't put the top down today cause it, because it's 60. It's all it's it's like I said, it's it's all the above. Oh, I'm also more accurate. Like I mentioned, Facebook, Facebook has really been good. Like the Mike, like my hometown page with 12,000 members has been, has been a fun diversion to just get away and and get interaction with people. I think the biggest mistake a lot of people have made is thinking that they have to go through this alone. And it's, you don't have to go through it alone. You've still got the phone. You've still got your interaction online.

Scott:
That's kind of one of the reasons why I wanted to start this pivot and shift mini series in the podcast was prove that that yeah, no, we know this whole industry is not alone. Everybody's in it. Everybody's dealing with the same stuff in their own, in their, in similar ways. Some of them identical, some of them are different and there's ways to cope. There's ways to adjust as waves to pivot and shift. So with that, I want to say, thank you very much for joining me today. This has been fun. Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate it. Now we're going to include all the places that, that everybody can find you, but if you can share the absolute best place for people to find more information about

Skip:
Yup. Every day I write skip Cohen, university.com is where everything gets posted daily. Sometimes there are two to three posts in a day, depending on what's going on. I'm also skip cohen on Facebook and skip cohen on Twitter. And my email, if anybody has a question I answered all the time. I have become email obsessive, even though I always was. I'm more obsessive now and it's (REDACTED). So that's where to find me.

Scott:
You can find the show notes and all the places to find skip at imagely.com/podcast/114. Don't forget to subscribe to the show at all the places wherever you listen, where we're there, Apple podcast, Spotify, all that stuff until next time.