Episode 80 – The Travel & Tour Photography Business with Kevin Wenning

Transcription was done by Temi.com which means it's an AI generated transcript. The transcript may contain spelling, grammar, and other errors, and is not a substitute for watching the video.

Scott: Welcome to episode 80. My name is Scott Wyden Kivowitz and I am joined by my guest Kevin winning. Now as a reminder at the end of the show, Kevin will have an opportunity to ask you a question and you'll be able to answer that question of the show notes page, which I'll give you, uh, at the end of the show. So a quick intro about Kevin. He operates a international bicycle tours designed for photographers. After several years of photographing client work in the studio and commercial projects, Kevin discovered travel photography and a couple of years into travel photography he founded internationally lost to combine his passions, we're seeing the world through cycling and photography and to experience the world with like-minded adventure travelers. No Kevin's projects now focus on making artistic photos and he consults with corporate clients to decorate their spaces with artworks from their own employees. And I think that's pretty cool. So maybe you'll be able to talk about that a little bit. Uh, so welcome to the show, Kevin.

Kevin: Thank you very much for having me. Yeah, listening. Thanks for having me here. Totally. The name of the company is intentionally lost.

Scott: Did I say it wrong? That's going to be in the show notes anyway.

Kevin: International lost, intentionally.

Scott: Ah, yes, yes. Yeah. So, uh, it will be in the show notes. Sorry about that. Um, and uh, yeah. Okay. So what's going on with you? Um, you've got, you've got a lot going on as as we can as we just heard. But uh, what's, what's actually going on? Uh, you know, coming up soon?

Kevin: Well, within the next year I've got two bike tours planned. We've got one going to Colorado, which is right in my backyard. Uh, yeah, a little easier on the logistics, close to home, little cheaper to put on. So, uh, and obviously we've got an awesome place here. Colorado is actually a home for a lot of professional cyclists as well. So we've got a huge cycling base here, beautiful photography. So I'm doing one in Colorado of this fall and during autumn. And then next year in May we're going to Tuscany. And that one's actually kind of filling up fast already. So I'm really looking forward to that one. And that actually is with a partner. So the one in Colorado and putting it on by myself with a vendor here in Colorado, the one in Tuscany is with uh, a friend experience plus bicycle tours. They've been doing bike tours since the 70s and I decided to partner up with them on that one. It's one of their, their most popular, but they run strictly bike tours. I'm adding the photography component to it. So those are the next two upcoming big ones. And yeah, so those are the major events coming up.

Scott: That's awesome. Because you know, like obviously, uh, Colorado is as, as you know, is absolutely stunning in fall, the colors that come out, oh my God. But uh, going to Tuscany now, so you're, you're, you're talking about like color splashes there too. So it's going to be a, that's going to be this going gonna be awesome for anybody who joins those.

Kevin: We're doing one in the, in the spring

Scott: too. So the idea is, you know, the poppy fields are all red and the fields are all rolling green. And they were trying to convince me I should go in the fall because it's just kind of longer days. You get a little bit more sunlight during the days. Uh, but the spring is the beautiful time that, that I want to go for photography, photography. So, yes. So, so let's dive into today's topic. Uh, you are a travel tour photographer, right? So you're, you're, you're teaching photographers, you're showing them around, um, you're doing all these cool things. I'm all over the place and you've got to have a website, right? You have to have a website that attracts the right audience for that. So let's talk about, um, some advice that you might have for people who want to start their own travel, a tour companies. Uh, if you can give us like three pieces of advice, that would be awesome.

Kevin: Absolutely. So, yes, you're, you're totally right. You do need a website for that. Uh, when I first started talking to friends about these, uh, a friend of mine sent out my Facebook page. At the time, which had nothing on it. And she sent it out to 50 of her friends who were all cycling enthusiasts and they love Colorado when they go up there in the fall. And I said, don't do that. I'm not ready. Like I started to get flooded with information and requests from people like send me your, your tour Info. I had nothing. I couldn't even point them to a website at the time, so I had to get that up very quickly. Uh, so I learned it quickly because I, I kind of had to, uh, and then the number one, first thing I think I learned was to serve an audience with content and information about your expertise before you have something to sell them a so on my website, you know, ton of people come in, they hit the one page that I'm trying to direct them to about the bike tours, but then they click around and they read other articles as well.

Kevin: And I've been posting, you know, it used to be just about my photography, just about my travels. And it was kind of like a, like a travel blog website, but that didn't really get a lot of traction for obvious reasons. The world's kind of moved on, but interestingly, those still get a lot of, a lot of interest, a lot of click throughs and a lot of traffic from other people that come in to the website. So I get to through that kind of promote my expertise that hey, I've, I haven't just started this, I didn't just put up this website and just kick this off because hey, I want to go on a bike tour and get other people to help me pay for it. I've been doing this for a long time. I'm an expert at this. So having that content to backup what you're saying is, is a pretty big deal.

Kevin: So serve an audience with your content before you sell them something. Uh, just backup your expertise, if you will. Uh, number two for me, and this is becoming more and more prevalent, use video, uh, video, video, video and it doesn't have to be super long polished video. Uh, actually, do you want to talk about that at the end? Kind of what I do first and what order as far as creating the video. Uh, but it's, it gets people to stay on pages longer. It gets people to, I leave more comments, share that information more frequently on their Facebook or their Pinterest or their whatever. Instagram. Uh, so video gets shared more than static photos and it just gets more comments and reactions. Uh, so video is, has been huge and I've started to do more and more of that time consuming, but I find that's always valuable.

Scott: And you're, you're recommending for people to do it in a really just blog content or like about pages, the homepage, like are you saying everywhere or just specific places?

Kevin: For me, yeah. There are certain places where it's more valuable than others. Uh, within blog content. If I found any way through watching Google analytics, they liked those pages where I have videos. Doesn't seem to matter how long they are. They just liked the video content that there is something there. I need to do one for my about page. Uh, the one that's been the best for me is kind of answering common questions. So I get a lot of people, they hit my website and they email me the same questions over and over. Uh, and then I direct them back to an Faq on my website. I direct them to a, like, uh, for me specifically, it's a downloading a training info. Like for the bike tour, how do I need a train to go on a multiday bike tour? Yeah. Those are two easy things. And then I point them to a video, the answers like the top four questions that everybody always emails me. And that right there just kind of creates that connection with people. So I have a specific page for that, but yes, on blog posts. And then for me it's, it's kind of walking people through the sales process of, okay, you're here now, you're interested. Now what do I do? And that's usually the questions that I get now, what, you know, so I kind of walk people through that with just a short video. Great.

Scott: Awesome. All right, so what, what's the, uh, third tip?

Kevin: Don't try to do things with your website that you can't, that you can't do that you can't sustain. Uh, the one that, the one big one for me that I just took off my website a little bit ago. I had a, it's called drift. It's just a chat tool where it pops up in the bottom corners is, you know, chat with me now asking me questions. And every time I got somebody on that thing, it would be when people are available and at their computer, right, which is app right after work. Uh, right after dinner time, maybe first thing in the morning before they go to work there on the website for a little bit. And that's great if I can respond to them within two minutes, if not, they've got to go on with their day. Right. And now I've got kids and those are times when I'm dealing with kids during the day.

Kevin: So I just realized this, this doesn't work for me. And it creates a bad experience for people visiting my website because even if I respond to them 10 minutes later, they're not going to leave their email there for me to follow up with them over email. So I've got to, I've got to use a different method. So even though it looks good on other people's websites, you may personally like it when you visit other people's websites. If it me as the operator of the website, if I can't sustain it and support it, then it's just a bad idea.

Scott: Yeah. And like, and if, if, if there's anybody out there that really wants to use a tool like that, and maybe the, the the best approach would be to try to find whatever the tool is in, in this sort of vein. I'm trying to find the tool that allows you to show it only when you're available. Right. So, so for example, um, you know, let's say it's a, uh, go into it, messages you through a slack, right? Um, and you, it, it only shows it based on your slack active or inactive status or something like that. It'll literally hide it from your site if you're not active on your computer, on your phone or wherever you want to reply to people. Um, like maybe that's the approach to take if, if somebody wants to use a tool like that. Right. Um, that, that's really good though because, because, um, you know, a lot of people think, okay, well I have to have Facebook messenger, I have to have Facebook comments, I have to have this, I have to have that. And it gets a little bit overwhelming, not only for the site owner, but it also gets overwhelming for the site viewers. So we really do need to be selective about what you're using and is it really going to be beneficial and, and is it going to save you time and money if it's not, is it worth it?

Kevin: Yeah. I've, I've found different methods that they're working better for my personality and my timeframes. Yeah. Essentially. But yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. The most tools that I viewed do have a schedule to say I'm available or I'm not available. Uh, having, having kids changes your life. You got, you got to work in different ways.

Scott: That's, that is for sure. That's for sure. So earlier in the conversation, and you touched briefly on credibility about, um, you know, when you, when you first launched the tour company, you had this content and you are both or utilize that content, um, and show people that this isn't new. Um, and that's, uh, that's a little bit of credibility. Uh, I'd love to hear more about, uh, building credibility, especially as somebody who has a, a new photography tour company. Um, and then beyond. Right. So let's talk about that. What, do you have any advice for that?

Kevin: Got a few different, different topics. Some of these might be a little bit soapbox topics for me, but, uh, let me dive into what I've, what I've gotten it from my notes here. Uh,

Scott: the,

Kevin: so the hardest thing for me is I didn't have a face or personality out there on social media. I basically didn't use social media before I started promoting my photography as a business. And that turned out to be detrimental I think. But uh, so the more people know you and trust you before they visit your, the less your website has to work because there's a, there's already a rapport created, but when they first hit your website and they don't know about you, you have to create that rapport with, with the pages, the content, the video that you post there, uh, what have you. So, uh, building that credibility for me has been, has been a big thing. I, I haven't had anybody question my credibility. It's more of the, the amount of people who are following or talking about it that, you know, social proof.

Kevin: Obviously the more people are talking about it and the more people go, okay, this might be something for me to, uh, I've always been somebody who's kind of like on the fringes. Like, if there are a million people talking about this, I'm not interested because I want to go do something else. Uh, but that's not the way most people think. Most people think a million people like this. Okay. I should probably check that out and, and give it some more, some more time in my life. What have you, uh, so number one I guess would be from my website. Uh, I, I try and get people to yes as quickly as possible, which means that the copy on the page, if I'm trying to sell them something, trying to get them interested in, give me your email. I want to send you more information about a tour.

Kevin: Uh, write the copy to try and get them to yes as quickly as possible and then leave it at that. Because in the sales cycle, if you've ever done any sales, the saying is, you know, once you get it, yes. Go home. Uh, so I try and accomplish that with the pages and I do that by having my wife read the copy. Having a friend who doesn't know me all that well, read the copy and say, Hey, if you visited this website, at what point, where's the copy that I've put in that website that's going to make you click off of it and say, Nah, I don't think I want to know anymore. So then I delete that out of the, out of the copy. So, uh, there are always things that in your head when you're writing copy or you're doing a video, you think, oh, this sounds good, this is great.

Kevin: But then when other people view it, it kind of turns them off or it creates that little question in their mind that they're like, Nah, I don't, I don't think I want and had no anymore. And they click away and it only takes a split second for them to do that. Right. So, um, building your credibility can be undone by you, by me quickly if I don't eliminate those things out of my conversation with people, whether that's a written or an in-person conversation. Uh, so that would be, that's kind of more about the the page content and copy of than anything. But, so that, that's been a problem for me. Just learning how to write to get people to that point that they go, yeah, yeah, I do want to know more. Uh, and then try not to try not to mimic or copy other, other styles.

Kevin: Like what works for you. For me, it's authenticity. Hey, I'm a person who's going on these bike tours. I've been practicing my photography. I'm a professional at this. Would you come along on a trip with me? Not, Hey, I've got a big company and we're doing all of these awesome tours and you want to come and be a part of it. Because then once people get in the door and they realize there's one man behind the curtain, he's, he's doing these all by himself. He doesn't have a company of other people then I've turned them off. If I've tried to sell them on, it's a big company and I've got a lot of support behind this and they come in and they realize you don't, uh, my model is built on the reason I got into photography, which was following other photographers who are going on these amazing trips.

Kevin: They come back and show you amazing photos and you go, I want to go on that vacation with that person. I want to learn photography from them. I want to have that experience with them. So that's really what this is built around. And I see so many people put up a website and they're trying to put on a personality because they think that's what's going to get people interested. And I'm trying to build something that's sustainable. I can't sustain something that's not me. So when I, if I put up on my website and I've seen other photographers do this, I'm published in National Geographic and published in an outdoor magazine, unpublished, published in all of these trade journals for adventure travel trade. Uh, in some cases I am, but if I put up logos on those websites and talk about campaigns I've done that aren't true, eventually somebody's going to ask me about that and I'm not going to have an answer for it. So just be authentic and honest with people more than anything. Uh, otherwise you will undo whatever credibility you've built a very quickly.

Scott: There's definitely no harm. Like for example, if, uh, let's say you did have a photo and afternoon geographic, but it wasn't like a full story that they hired you to do, they'd sort of men, maybe they licensed the photo, you know, it's, there's no harm in saying that, that Nat Geo is a client of yours. You have, you done work for them as long as you have the, the true story to tell people. If they do ask, like, you know, there's no harm in, in. If somebody asks and you say yes, they loved a photo of mine and they licensed it, that's the truth, right? It's still, it's still credibility but don't, don't, don't be false about it. Don't make up a story because then that'll come back and bite you in the butt for sure. So,

Kevin: right. But I'm pointing that out because I think I've seen a lot of people getting started try and do that. Like this is going to get more people interested and then all of a sudden the bottom falls out because they can't support it. It was a false story like you're saying. Uh, the other thing that I've, I've started doing this year is like my niche, specifically his photography and cycling. That's how I like to go experience a location. Well it's, I've, I've found there are a lot of people who, who like it, who are interested in it, but there's not a lot of conversation around it. And within like cycling community specifically, everything is around professional cycling, professional events. They don't talk much about recreational cycling. So there's an article here and there randomly in different places around the web about it, but there's no one place that people can go for this information.

Kevin: So I've started doing interviews with other people who do this exact thing, who are cyclists and photographers and building stories. And building a community around that. Uh, honestly, much like what you're doing with, uh, with the Imagely podcasts, you're, you talked to people who build on this technology and, you know, think it's important. Uh, so I'm doing the same thing around, around my conversations. My topic is getting those people together with me, have a conversation about it, and it's actually, I've only done a handful of them so far, but it's taken off more than I ever expected. So if there's not a conversation about it, you know, be the conversation starter, go out and, and you know, cold call on people who you've never met and, uh, and your common enthusiasm, uh, we'll get you over that threshold quicker than you might think. So, you know, start the conversation.

Scott: Yeah. You know, and it's, uh, it's kind of like, kind of like, um, how video can, can build engagement and build credibility. Having a podcast really does the same. Like if, if, if, if you're thinking about getting into travel photography and you have an idea for a podcast that's related to it, there's no reason why you couldn't start one. Um, and, and the act as additional content for your website, act as credibility, actives, as new places for people to find you. Right. Um, so it's a great thing. I mean, like, I, I'm not a travel, uh, to have a tour photographer. Um, I love to travel. I love travel photography, but I am, I, I don't need tours, but, um, I am slowly changing my John Rhe photography here, local in New Jersey from family and cake smash, two personal brand photography. I've talked about this on the APP and the podcast and the, um, maybe six or seven episodes ago.

Scott: But, um, during this process I actually started a local podcast related to branding. And it's just as a way to show local businesses that I have knowledge in branding and I am a photographer and this is, you know, and basically just a small podcast episodes are like five minutes long and you know, they're, they're getting a decent interviews for not promoting it really at all. So it's really just credibility and branding and getting your, getting your name out there. So, um, something like that could be beneficial no matter the, the genre of photography you do. Um, depending, I mean, you're not going to do a podcast or you could do a podcast about weddings to your wedding clients, but I don't know if that would do well, I dunno. It depends on the defense anyway,

Kevin: but you're, you know, you're just generating conversation about it, whether it's you talking to a camera or with a guest who shares your shares, your passion and your interest for it.

Scott: Yeah. I mean, you could get wedding planners on, you could have venue owners come on or you know, stuff like that. So, um, anyway, so, uh, any other, any other advice about this? Um, as far as the,

Kevin: I think the mystery versus transparency question was kind of where we started out here. And how much information, how much explanation should you give somebody who said that? It was, my first was kind of get people to yes and eliminate stuff out of the website that makes them question whether they want more information. And then, uh, I've, I've been moving more, more and more of my content tours, shorter, more concise posts and, and just one, you'll make one point at a time. Uh, and that has to do with kind of my next answer about what sort of content I create as well. But uh, I try and get somebodies attention first and then there's a ton of supporting information and content on my website. If somebody really wanted to spend an hour there and learn everything about, you know, what to expect on a bike tour, they could do that.

Kevin: Nobody's going to Google analytics tells me nobody does. But once I've had that initial contact, then I have all of the supporting information where I can say, yes, go read the Faq is go read through all of the details about the tour. It's all there. But I don't put that up in front because then they're just hit with a wall of text and they go, ah, I don't have time to read this. I don't know, time for this. And then they go away. So just giving them enough information. And then once they do contact me and I send them those links, they go, oh wow, this guy has actually thought this through. He just, he's done this before. He's got all the details worked out. He's not just making it up as it goes.

Scott: Yeah. This is, uh, many episodes go. We've, we've talked about a lead generation tactics and, um, I have a whole course on, on lead generation for photographers. And, um, this is one of, this is the perfect place where you can, you can get your leads and provide them with intense value. So you have one landing page that, that talks about what they can, you know, what they'll get if they give you their email address, um, the video content they'll get. And then when they sign up, you're dripping them emails with the video links to bacteria site with the videos, um, that are giving them this education. And instead of it giving, give it to them all at once. Like you said, in a big block of text, uh, you're, you're dripping it to them in an elegant and beautiful way where they get to us to see your face and you talking right to their face, uh, through video. So I think that's, uh, uh, it's just, uh, it's, it's a great thing.

Kevin: Yeah. I watched your, your episode with Nate, Nate Grock, I think it was in December last year and he made an excellent point that especially tour operators and photographers who are trying to get off the ground, you need to, you need to understand, and I understood this, but I don't, didn't know how to do it. Really getting started. You've got to get past your family, friends, friends of friends, circle with your message because those people are all going to say, yes, this is brilliant. You're an amazing person. And, and you need to ignore them and go out to the general public and see what they think, uh, in. The best way to do that is with a lead generator. Get them to pull something down off your website. Because, and my, my personal tip for that, I guess would make it something that's quick and easy to consume.

Kevin: Not An ebook that takes them two days to, to step through and do everything. Because they're going to put that in a folder and they're going to look at it when they have time, which has maybe never, but if it's a one-page pdf that they get, you know, two things they can use today out of it. Now they've, now you're in their brain and the next time they think about their photography or they go out on a bike ride from, in my case, they're going to think about something that I taught them with that, that free information I gave them.

Scott: And you could even kick it up a notch and make whatever you're sending them really useful for what it's related to. So what I mean by that is you, Kevin is doing a bicycle photography tours. A lot of cyclists I know because I do know a few cyclists. Um, they listen to music while they're riding their bikes, correct. Right. Okay. A lot of podcasts. So what if, uh, if you're doing a for a bicycle photography tour, what if your, your lead magnet is a not a, uh, let's say it's a, it's a podcast, right? That it's not really a podcast is just educational content in audio form that they can put on their phones and listen to what you're teaching them while they're riding their bikes, doing what they want to learn about anyway. Right? So, you know, you have the opportunity to really give them something that's educational that they can put into use while doing what you want to connect with them about. So instead of it, just damn it, man.

Kevin: That's a that's another dozen sticky notes on my monitor here.

Scott: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's thinking outside the box, you know, is, is hard. Um, especially as, as people who are at least most of the listeners of this who are typically more photographers than business people. Um, it's hard to think outside the box and find ways that really integrate well with your audience and for you and anybody who's like you, that's the perfect opportunity to get in somebody's ears while doing what you want them to do and hire you for.

Kevin: That's, that's fantastic. I hadn't thought of an audio version of the lead magnet, but that's, so going back to the beginning of our conversation, I said something about, uh, let me read my notes here. So going back to the beginning of my co of our conversation here, I said, basically serve an audience with content before you have something to sell them. Uh, I didn't know until just recently what my audience wanted. Uh, by serving your audience with content, they will tell what they want you to create, what they want you to give them. And I'm starting to hear more and more from people that are interested in my tours. Hey, don't you? Is there somewhere that I can get a brush up on photography? Because I've been spending a lot of time on cycling. I feel confident as a cyclist. Biking is no problem, but I haven't picked up my camera at a year or I take it out once a year when I go on vacation.

Kevin: Do you have a quick cheat sheet? You know, help me, help me get ready to go on this tour and make the most of my photography. That's the next piece of content that I've got to create a, because I get that question all the time. My audience is telling me I need this, give me, give me something and that's going to be my new, my new lead, a lead generator, which I haven't created yet. It's all been about the cycling so far because I focused on that thinking that was going to be the primary people that were interested and it turns out it's more photographers who are interested in booking these tours and that for me was kind of a problem. Like I want, I, I set up the business in this niche because it's different because everybody runs photography, tourists, not everybody, but all of the people in my, in my universe that do this sort of travel thing, they run strictly photography tours or bike tours. So I've done both, but there's nobody that, that puts the two together. So it's great. I've gotten good response to it. But how do I market to two completely different verticals has been my challenge.

Scott: Yup. It's, that is definitely, uh, one of those unique challenges, but I'm sure you'll figure it out. Um, over time it's coming together. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's going to be a mixture of, of you being creative, um, you thinking more business and also you partnering with the Right People. I think, you know, the right people on both sides, you know, uh, and you already, you already partnered with this company and, uh, in Tuscany. Right. So, you know, that's, that's a, that's a great start. Uh, for that. Um, there was something I wanted to mention. I forgot what it was. Oh, what I would do if, if, if it was me looking for a, um, somebody to teach me about photography related to bike to, to cycling, one thing that would catch my attention is a really good video or audio about how to buy, how to cite a bicycle, how to cycle bicycle cycle.

Scott: How does cycle with any of those words. Yeah. How to, how to ride a bike, um, and safely carry photography equipment. And what photography equipment really is ideal for travel on a bike. Because you know, I've got a tripod. I don't know if I would want to want to ride a bike with that strapped on my back. I've got bags. I mean years ago I actually wrote an article, um, cause I used to ride a lot when I was younger, but I actually wrote an article about, um, this cool. Like if you're listening to this podcast, you're not seeing me with my hand gestures, but there's this cool strap that kind of goes like across your chest a little bit and it's like neoprene and it keeps your camera basically, uh, on your chest. So it's not on your back. It's, it's, yeah, it's like a, it's anyway just [inaudible] who made the, made the pro optech made the product. Um, so yeah, but anyway, but that would be a lead magnet that would be interesting for anybody who's interested in s you know, this, this type of a photography tour because now they know, right. So

Kevin: that's part of what my series of interviews with other cyclists, photographers is about to come up with a sort of crowdsourced that idea. Like how do you do it? What kind of camera do you carry? Do you have bags on your, on your bike or do you just carry a camera in your back pocket? And it all starts with one tip. There is, it all starts with what are you going to photograph on your ride? Are you really going to photograph and amazing landscape and sunset during your bike ride? Or are you just getting other photographers or sight pictures of other cyclists who are on the ride with you or you just photographing, this is my ride, this is my bike. Or are you just posting stuff for social? So that makes a huge difference in what you carry

Scott: for sure. Um, okay. Well, so this is the point of the show where you have the opportunity to ask our listeners a question that they will have the ability to answer. So with that, uh, what would you like to ask all the listeners of the show

Kevin: preclude the question with, with this, I invite other professional photographers to go on these trips. If you run other, you know, photography tours of your own, you're welcome to go on these trips. It's all about people sharing their knowledge and helping each other, not all about me leading a workshop. So with that in mind, as an experienced or a growing photographer, do you seek out ongoing education for yourself and what kind of experiences are you looking for? So if you are a portrait photographer primarily, do you spend your free time learning other tricks in, in your portrait photography and improving that? Or do you look to do something else and keep yourself fresh and keep yourself excited about photography by practicing something different with your downtime? And this is happened me, uh, you know, when I was doing commercial photography, I would spend my time only, uh, only photographing the same things. Like I would pick up a different camera. I try different lens is trying different filters, should improve on that commercial photography so I could have more skills to sell. Not a bad thing, right? But when I started branching out and doing travel photography and learning from travel photographers, I started to put things into my, into my tools that I never would have experienced or come across while I was on that commercial path.

Scott: Nice.

Kevin: That's a great question. I can't wait to see, uh, what, uh, what people, what people say. I know that for me, um, I haven't taken a workshop in an in some time at this point, but I used to and I would do it on a variety of things, whether it's landscape or portraits, a lighting or posing and, you know, so I've done, I've done the gamut. Um, uh, and I just love, I just love learning all different types of photography. So hopefully other people have the same mindset, but you never know. Sure. Yeah. So, um, thank you, Kevin, for joining us today. I'm, I'm glad that we were to get you on the show. I think it's a really good conversation and I know there's a lot of photographers that are sort of in this boat, whether it's just photography or, or maybe they're also thinking bicycles and photography, who knows.

Kevin: But, um, this is a topic I don't think is talked about a lot. Just photography tours, in general, I don't think is talked about a lot. Um, in the industry, in the photo industry. Yes. There's a lot of people out there that, that do it. Yes, there are people come on the podcast and talk about it, but I don't think it's that often. So I'm glad that we were able to have some sort of dialogue about it, um, today. So I thank you for having me here. I love business conversations around photography because yeah, once you get out of the mindset that I'm just a photographer and you'd see yourself as a business, it's, it's a different world,

Scott: that's for sure. Um, well you can find the show notes and where to find Kevin. And to answer the question that he just asked you at imagely.com/podcast/80 and don't forget to subscribe to the show on Apple podcast, stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, and wherever you listen to podcasts. Until next time.